I do not believe the US has the right to legislate morality. I do not think that what the US has is right for all cultures. I am not sure why we think our way is the best for everyone, people from different cultures think much differently than we do. So basically it is there decision to change things not ours. With that said I must say I do not agree with what we are doing but I feel that this was done with good intentions. I am just hoping all the troops who are doing what they think they should are doing it with good will and not malicious killers. Should we (US)have our nose is everyones elses business, no. I think we should pay more attention to issues in this country.
Have a Wheelie Nice Day!!!!!!:)

I am all for freedom and try to live it to the fullest. But, I think you are off base on some points.
I have been to countries ran by dictatorships while in the Navy and I will tell you , One trip to one of these places and you will have a whole new outlook on the U.S.of A. I will just point out some things I disagree with you on.
First, how many innocent people in Iraq have died ? well, a good many I'm sure. But, not near as many if we wouldn't have chucked that jackass out of power and killed his son's. America may not be perfect but I don't think you will find mass graves of gov't tortured and murdered victims who's only crime was, well, doing what you just did and disagreed with the Gov't. I also don't think you will find G. Bush with a meat grinder made just for humans in his office. (Saddam had one) These people wanted and needed us to liberate them.. please don't believe what you hear in the media. Ask one of your buddies who was over there. I'm sure you know someone who was there.
Second, America will help anyone fight for democracy and fight against communism. i.e. vietnam, Korea, That is what we do.You are telling me that the south vietmanese wanted to become a communist state?? I don't think so.
You say people didn't want to go to Vietnam and were forced to go against their will. This is true. I didn't want to go to Desert Storm but I did. I sucked it up and did my duty. Why? because I love America and freedom. It seems to me that alot of people today want something for nothing. they want the freedom to walk down the street, Pray to thier own God, peaceful protest. freedom of speech. and a big one, the right to bear arms. BUT, these same people that are quick to protest and excersise the right to protest are also the first people to bitch about having to fight for that right! These people can either do one of two things as far as I'm concerned. Either grow some balls and fight for what you believe in when called upon to do so. OR, shut the hell up, give up your citizenship and leave. we do not need you. This country would be hailing Hitler right now if the greatest generation thought the way these people do today.
America "saving the day" ? Yes, we do that ALOT. Who ever saves the day for us though? Not sure where I'm going with this? O.K. bear with me.
Take the terrible Tsunami that devastated South East Asia. What was the first country that was looked to for aid? you got it AMERICA. and America coughed up 500 million bucks right off the bat, along with countless military personnels time and effort.Did we have to? No.But we did.
What about France in WW II. we bailed them out big time. along with many other european countries.
Now,some of these countries that were devastated by the Tsunami are the same damn countries that cheered, actually cheered when 2,200 of our innocent citizens died on 9-11. BUT, we helped them out anyway. Where were they when we needed help?? They could have cared less.
When France was asked to help us liberate Iraq they said hell no, No big loss though. they are 0 for 4 in wars anyway but, an effort would have been nice. It's no big suprise that Farnce did'nt help us liberate Iraq, Hell, they didn't even help us liberate FRANCE !!

The bottom line is America is like a police officer. everyone hates them until they need them. Then all of the sudden they are their best friend..
I am extremely proud to be an American, I have seen alot of the world and believe me, the world is a shithole !! America does have it's internal issues but nothing is perfect. and it will only continue to get worse in America if we continue to try and tear it down and not support the greatest counrty in the history of the world....
I do know what freedom is, I have been to places that have ZERO freedom. It sucks. Freedom is not about you being allowed to run down your street naked or being able to drive drunk, It's about having a say in matters. Where you live, what you do for a living, who you pray to, who you marry, who your president is, where you go to school, etc.. All of these freedoms are so taken for granted here in America. In alot of the places I have been to this is unheard of !!! And just because you do not agree with some issues, laws or regulation does not mean you are not, in fact, free, It means that there has to be some kind of order, and more people think you are wrong on that particular issue, therefore it is different than you would like it to be. It is called a majority and it is just one of the things i am damn glad America has.

I LOVE AMERICA, AND EVERONE WHO LIVES HERE SHOULD ALSO.

Waco happened not just because of some tax law. It was on weapons violations AND most importantly those kids were held against their will and were being abused !!(fact) The gov't was fired upon for 25 minutes and never returned a single shot. (did you know that?) they only tried to put the gas inside the building with a tank because they were getting shot at the whole time and it was the gas that caught the building on fire.(fact) You can not expect them to just sit there and be continually fired upon....
Believe me I am skeptical of the Gov't but facts are facts.

We still love ya though Potts !!!!!!:)

Sorry, but the information on Waco I have is way different than what the news media has been feeding the public. Have you seen the actual footage from WACO? If you had, you wouldn't be saying the things you are. Granted I wasn't there, but from the footage I've seen, the feds fired first. Kids being held against their will? So how come some of them left when given the chance? One of them was even shot while walking down the road away from the "compound" by a fed in clear view of two other eye witnesses. They were shot once in the chest at long range, and then shot right behind the ear execution style. The other two witnesses fled and later gave their testimony. I can regurgitate all the reports you care to listen to, but the only way you'll believe is if you dig and find out the truth on your own.

What is a "weapons violation"? What did they have that was in violation of the 2A? Semi auto to full auto conversion parts are a taxable item according to the feds. The 2A says otherwise. If you like paying taxes on your guns, then have at it. As for me, I believe the Constitution forbids it and in clear language forbids the taxation of personal property including income. But hey what the hell I do I know? I'm too stupid according to the government to be able to defend myself. Just lay down and pay, we'll protect you. Sounds like the mafia to me. So, WACO WAS about the taxes. Plain and simple. If the feds weren't there to collect their unjust taxes, none of that would've happened. The FEDS wouldn't have fired at Koresh FIRST when he came to the door. Yeah.. the first shot was fired when an unarmed Koresh opened the door and stood 2 feet outside of it IN PLAIN VIEW and talked face to face to a fed. An end was near. He was discussing what the next step, then some gung ho grunt fired at him. It can be seen plain as day. I don't know where you got your info but it sure doesn't jive with the info I've seen. The arial footage clearly shows this as well as a camera in front of the "compound". As soon as the ground troops fired, the helicopter which was in radio contact with the ground fired second. They took out a Davidian in a water tower, and the commenced to firing randomly into the building. The Davidians didn't fire until a full 15 minutes after the feds first fired.. apparently the helicopter had to reload.

If you get the actual video footage watch the arial shots. Pay attention to the four corners of the building where the tanks actually ignite the building. But more importantly, before that, watch the troops in the back shooting the unarmed women and children running out of the back.. they are all dropping as soon as they hit the door. Then, watch the tank run over somebody, then run over them again.. and again. Then tell me that an unjust tax is good cause to murder people.

Don't give me crap about the kids being held against their will either. The state of Texas investigated the Davidians on ALLEGED child care violations and cleared them of any wrong doing before WACO ever became a federal issue.

I wasn't there, I can only watch the available footage and read the official records and draw my own conclusions. That's all anybody can do. Have you ever noticed how the main stream media never shows any "proof" of any kind when they give their reports. They show no actual footage in any length to determine anything that's going on. They show the famous footage of a fed falling off the roof of a building.. over and over again. And that's it. Watch the WHOLE footage, and then tell me you come to the same conclusion you have now.

So, what would you do if some feds came up to your house and brought all their tanks and helicopters with them and demanded to see your full auto machine gun parts cause they wanted to collect a tax on them? Would you pay? What if you couldn't produce the parts cause you didn't have them.. even though they claim you did? Then what? Maybe Koresh had them, maybe he didn't. Is that really the point? Shouldn't the point be what the hell business is it to the government? What gives anyone the right to regulate my firearms? The fact that the government doesn't allow you to carry your gun with you would've been enough for the founding fathers of this country to start shooting. We're a bunch of pussies compared to them. We just roll over and take up the ass. Did you know that the ATF was about ready to be chopped before WACO happened? That wouldn't be any reason to create a "tragedy" now would it. Freedom my ASS.

Ok.. I'm gonna stop now before I really get on a rampage.

This'll be really cool.. watch.

I love The United States of America.. I love what it's SUPPOSED to be. Since when has the constitution been adhered to though. It died 17 years after it's inception in the Whisky Rebellion. It died the hands of greedy federal agents, and it hasn't changed since. I think it's a good thing that we help out abroad. But the last REAL war we ever fought was World War II. Wars require a declaration of WAR. Show me the declaration of war for Vietnam.. The Gulf War.. Iraq.. Oh.. they aren't there. Why not? A declaration of war requires a clear cut goal. That's why you won't find one. A war on terror.. now that's an unending war. That's a war that'll get a motivated politician some support from industry and keep the funds flowing. Want cheaper oil.. ok, we can get it for you. How many south vietnamese were asked what they want? HOw many Iraqis were asked? Actually how many innocent citizens of those countries died? How many innocent citizens die in our country because of our government? Who is going to come in and save us.

If we were to use your logic, then any country in the world would be justified in coming over and kicking our governments ass based on WACO, Ruby Ridge, and any of the other fiascos and no knock warrants that have gone bad. They could kick our asses for our government nuking thousands of our own citizens, rounding up Japanese citizens.. and any of the other infringements on our freedom. Hey, I know, let's lock people for smoking dope. They certainly don't deserve to be free... what's next.. beer? Oh.. no, they'd never do that.

America is the bully police officer of the world. I support the Constitution.. TO THE LETTER. I have read the federalist and anti-federalist papers (WHICH DEFINE THE CONSTITUION). I know how this country is supposed to work and I AM FIGHTING TO MAKE IT WORK. If you want to let the government run amuck and get away with fighting ILLEGAL UNCONSTITUIONAL "WARS" then so be it. If you don't like the constitution and don't think a declaration of war is important, then we might as well just trash this government and go for a straight democracy. If you think freedom isn't about well.. freedom, then what is it about? If I can't carry a gun to defend myself, or walk down the street naked, or drink a beer while walking down the street, or watch naked girls dancing in a bar, or gamble when I want, or drive fast when nobody is around.. then what is freedom? Freedom to do what YOU think is acceptable? THAT'S NOT FREEDOM.. that's your freedom. Anybody that stops me from enjoying my freedom.. is against freedom. How else can you slice it? Yeah, we have more freedom than most places, but I'm not willing to stop fighting for complete freedom. If you enjoy the (very limited) freedom you have, then ok. You don't have to fight for any more.

I understand that you have a party up at your place from time to time. You like having that party? How about the local churches get together and start to petition to end your parties.. You wouldn't like that much would you? Neither would I. If a "majority" of the people think you shouldn't be allowed to have a party on your own private property with beer and music and all that crazy stuff.. then I guess you'd be ok with it. I guess if you were mugged, or shot at, you'd be ok with not being allowed to carry a gun.. after all, the "majority" says you shouldn't be allowed to. I seem to recall history lessons about a "majority" of the people wanting to own slaves. I guess that's all ok with you then too? Freedom and the majority don't go hand in hand. It's all fun and games.. as long as you are "the majority".

I fight for freedom and the Constitution. Read the federalist papers, then you'll understand how the government is supposed to work.

I don't have a problem with police officers that uphold the constitution.. I have a problem with the ones that "just do their job". America's foreign policy is no different. 9-11 and Iraq are two different issues as well.

There's way too much content here to argue correctly.. This country will never be free. Nobody will ever be free. The simple reason is that other people won't let other people be free. That's the main point. We can argue the merits of this "war" or that "war", but the bottom line is that people suck. And as long as they suck and won't let others be free, then we are going to have problems. America is the best working example of limited freedom. But freedom by definition is abosolute. So America is technically not free. People don't hate America for it's freedom, that's silly. People hate America because we are bullys. On that point you are correct. We are the police officer that nobody likes.

I will still strive for true freedom, and I will not force anybody to act a certain way unless they are harming somebody else or their property. I will fight for the Constitution and if this country is invaded, or war OFFICIALLY declared, then I will fight and fight well. If my freedom is being infringed, then I will fight. I realize the small amount of freedom that is afforded us in this country is the best it's gonna get for a while. But I'm not going to give up trying to get more freedom.

This'll be really cool.. watch.

Just one more thought then I'll shut up. How much collateral damage is acceptable in a war? How many innocent lives lost are an acceptable loss? Forget the laws, forget the constitution and forget this country vs that country. You have a room full of people. A man in the room is going to kill a person every hour until he's stopped, or the people are gone. How many of those innocent people is it ok to kill in an effort to stop the murderer?

Now, how many innocent vietnamese was it ok to kill? How many Iraqis? How many people have to blow themselves up on our landmines before we go clean them up? We could've taken Saddam out of power without taking over the complete country. They had a government that worked, they just had a bad leader. The same thing could and has happened here. Who decided democracy was right for them?

Ok, a couple more thoughts.. then I'll shut up. See what you made me do. :) Did the majority want alcohol prohibition? Did it work, or did it cause more problems than it cured? And most importantly, was it constitutional and did it characterize freedom? Does it bear any resemblance to today's drug prohibition?

I think if we are going to discuss this much further, then we should break it up into smaller topics, that way we can keep track of what we are talking about. Or we can just drop it.

This'll be really cool.. watch.

Potts,
It is pretty apparent that you have nerver served your country.
I am not going to go on and on with this, not sure my fingers can take it... I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this subject.
I hope though, that you are not one of those people who called our soldiers "baby killers" and threw dogshit on them when these brave soldier returned from Vietnam. We had some jack asses ( whos' views sound remarkably like yours ) throw paint on my shipmates while we passed under the Golden Gate bridge in hippie town ( san fran ) when we returned from Destert Storm.

Like I said I will not make any excuses for loving my country.Much less apologize for serving my country. I would defend freedom again in a minute if called upon so people with all views , (including yours,) can enjoy freedom.
I'm not really sure what kind of person you really are and have not heard enough to come to any conclusion about your overall view of America or it's soldiers. But, if you are in fact one of the many( and I'm certainly not accusing you of this ) people who enjoy the freedom I, and thousands of others have fought for,only to have you bad mouth America and it's soldiers, Well, Then I have nothing left to say to you. I'm just sorry you fell the way you do.

I'm sorry that you are as closed minded and judgemental as you are. I have served my country, I was in the Navy. I already told you in my response that I would fight to preserve freedom, the constitution and this country. I am part of the militia of this country and I take my duties seriously. I do not spit on soldiers and I respect their efforts. The things I mention are not the soldiers fault nor their responsibility, they are the responsibility of the policy makers and government officials that make a feeble attempt to run this country. It's not the soldiers fault the government is rife with corruption.

I was out of the Navy by the time the Gulf War started. If I had served during a war, I would've stayed in to help my fellow soldiers. Most of the people you call "hippies" are simply unable to discern the actions of soldiers from the actions of the government that directs them.

So, you don't care that the government is not being run according to the constitution? You did swear to uphold it when you became a Sailor. Have you checked into getting a copy of the Waco footage? You can find it on the internet.

Without trying to sound like a "hippie".. Peace Man. :) I'll still get your back if you'll get mine. But along the way, I'll complain about things that are "wrong" with the system and I'll complain loud when people are stripped of their 1st and 2nd amendmant rights.

This'll be really cool.. watch.

I have seen extensive footage on Waco, It was used, along with many other videos as training footage when I was sent to Marksman Observer training for S.O.R.T. I'm not saying it was handled correctly. I'm just saying it was not planned from day one to end up that way. Why would it be??
How do you figure I am closed minded. Just because I do not agree with you does not make me closed minded and unable to see the " big picture" I can see the big picture, I just don't agree with your interpretation of it. How is that being closed minded.
Judgemental?? Is that like rushing to judgement on the Waco incident and forming an iron clad conclusion that the feds were wrong even though neither one of us were there??
Being a former sailor I'm sure you have been to some shithole countries also, Do you think they have it better than we do? I don't think so. There are millions of them that would trade you citizenships in a minute and love America till the day they die.
This freedom you desire where you get to do ANYTHING you want is unachieveable in the world today. If we had no Gov't order we would end up in a "Mad Max" style world and have even less freedoms than we do today.
You are not going to ever be able to convince me that America sucks. Sorry, it's just not going to happen. This is the greatest country in the world. Just the mere fact that we can have a discussion like this were anyone can view it is a testament to how great this country is and I cheerish it. try having this discussion in an open forum like this in many other countries. We would both be on the missing persons list in a hurry.

This was a great conversation/ arguement !! good quality stuff !:)

Hey potts, how about a private message feature on this site? did'nt it used to have one? Also can I post pics off the net like on other forums??

Sorry about the closed minded remarks.. I maybe drew an improper conclusion based on the fact that you said the government never returned a shot for 25 minutes AFTER the Davidians started shooting first. If you have other evidence than what I've seen, I'd like to see it.

I admit, I have become judgmental and closed minded myself. I have seen cops lie in court under oath and produce false evidence. I've seen officers lie and cheat and steal. I guess I just don't trust anybody.. no matter what uniform they wear. I'm sure there are some people out there who are honest, but I havn't met very many of them.

I admit that this country is the best one abailable. But couldn't it be better? I think we could have a lot more freedom than we do now without resorting to Mad Max living. It's not America that sucks.. It's just people that suck. I have a bad out look on life.. sorry. :)

America has some problems right? Shouldn't we work to make it better? You like the freedom you have right? Don't you want more? Wouldn't you like to be able to carry a gun where ever you want.. without asking the state for permission? Just because it's unachieveable doesn't mean I'm going to quit trying. I'm going to keep stirring shit up... That's how much I love freedom and the ideas presented in the Constitution.. and the federalist paper arguments.. and all that stuff.

I'm grateful that we can get away with having conversations like this and not get our asses locked up. Otherwise, I would have to start shooting. But again, I want to make it better. I've had cops and people in power take advantage of me, and I've been on the end of the persecution stick before.. I guess it's my "punishment" for voicing my opinion. While I've yet to be beaten, I've been detained, fined and taken to court by corrupt people who had a "personal" grudge against me. All on unrelated "legal" matters, but it was persecution that was brought to bear by people with power who abused their power to seek revenge on me.. for some stupid shit. Anyways.. I'm no freaking martyr. I dish it out as well as I take it. Anyways.. perhaps I'm a bit more paranoid because of the things I've seen. Trust me, I wish I weren't as cynical as I am.

This'll be really cool.. watch.

There is a private message feature. I just realized thanks to your question that permissions had been disabled for it during the last site upgrade. I saw it on my login so I thought it was working. My bad.. :)

It should be working now.

You can post pictures by using the image tag.. http://www.pegmonkey.com/filter/tips/1#filter-bbcode

Look under image and it'll explain how. I'd give an example here.. but it keeps just wanting to post the picture and won't ignore my the code.

This'll be really cool.. watch.

Also, there's a chat thingy for live chat.. http://www.pegmonkey.com/chatbox

To send a message via the private message thingy, there should be a link on the upper right corner of your screen that says "view inbox (0)" OR something like that.

This'll be really cool.. watch.

America is not just a bully, america is bullied.
Now, from that alone you are probably expecting something other than whats to come so brace yourselves.

America as a nation is stupid when it comes to reality. American history isnt the most mature ok, thats fine, but really the reason for US stupidity is not inexperience. Lack of perspective is the culprit, America is spoiled plain and simple. USA is a massive country and the TV among other reasons nurtured a gang mentality (America f**k yeah). Americans are brainwashed day and night, sure that didn't help any but Americans have no recent experience with war in your OWN country. Most any European African South American and otherwise has heard stories of and/or personally experienced War in its true form while Americans are living in a fantasy. American soldiers go to the Middle East, bomb cities, killing a Million+ people and this is freedom? If Americans had any recent experience with civil war or another country invading you, you would understand the bull. You cant bullshit a survivor of those conditions, they would see through it. My heart goes out to the people who have experienced war, especially occupation.

SCesnick, explain to me this: If the US dethroned Saddam and took out his regime why are you still there after the new Iraqi government has been asking for years for the US to leave? Because of the same bs that put you there in the first place. From the first week you enter the military you are slowly brainwashed, I know this from firsthand experience. The military tells you that the public is ignorant and can't be trusted to make rational decisions because they dont understand war and what the military does. This thinking doesnt only tighten your bond with other soliders but it allows them to keep brainwashing you so that you will do things in the name of your country which really have nothing to do with saving your country (or anyone for that matter). Also, mountains of people join the military for the same sick reason which is to USE their weapon, not just to sit around in a desert, this is clear!

Im loving the Propaganda that indirectly says that if you dont support everything America does then you dont love your country and youre probably an anti american terrorist, keep it coming fools, its funny (but disgusting and sad at the same time).

Dpotts I love your second post that says "How many Iraqis were asked?". America is the Policeman, Judge, Jury, and executioner in this case. America decided on their own that a country needs help (not because Iraq was the next logical step after Afghanistan, which was of course to save the Afghanis - hint hint) and therefore they are weapons free to do what they want, of course for a just cause. Stop helping, this is genocide with so much propaganda behind it you dont even know who you are anymore.

For all the shit talking I've done about America and Americans, I'd just like to note that America is a beautiful country with beautiful and intelligent people, and there are as many problems in other countries as in your own, but just know that with great power comes great responsibility, but you have nobody to answer to. Don't fuck around because every empire falls if they try too hard to control everything. I hope enough intelligent people in America grow the balls to fight back peacefully against the injustice and the stupidity and lies perpetuated by the media.